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Author Topic: School Board Elections This Fall  (Read 20328 times)

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mtnmama

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Re: School Board Elections This Fall
« Reply #165 on: October 15, 2009, 09:08:14 AM »
I was not able to attend the event on Tuesday, but was at the one on the 8th. 

I take from the conversation here Mr Kirk doesn't have a legal opinion yet to support his claim he is eligible, but he thinks the certifying of the signatures suffices?  As others have said, they are not one in the same and he should seek a legal opinion soon as he will be legally challenged if he should win a seat.

I must disagree that the candidates should make a statement of their support or non-support of the Freshwater case.  If elected to the board, they will serve as the "jury".  The referee will give a report to the board to review and from that the decision will be made. Asking them to declare right now would be like asking a jury their opinions before the evidence had been presented.  However, I believe it's pretty safe to use past actions to predict future actions.

Could someone who was there on Tuesday give some more details on questions asked and the answers?  Which candidates were in attendance on Tuesday? 

seabiscuit

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Re: School Board Elections This Fall
« Reply #166 on: October 15, 2009, 09:17:11 AM »
Paula Barone, school board candidate, followed up with me yesterday regarding my question concerning the use of the Nazarene Church for the KCCC graduation.  She provided me with two websites

www.firstamendmentcenter.org   This website is operated by Vanderbilt University.

www.adl.org/religion_ps_2004/expression.asp  This website is the site of the Anti-Defamation League. 

I appreciated that she did the additional research to help clarify this for me.  These websites are full of important information that our school board members, teachers and administrators should be aware of.

She also provided me this website were you can download the Public Schools & Religious Communities, A First Amendment Guide by going to this website:

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=13613

I decided to peruse the First Amendment website and found the following:

Muslim teen sues over graduation held at church

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=18274

Wis. students sue to halt graduations in church

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=21520

I think it's important to know that while this may not be an issue in our community at present, it could become another potential problem so my question was certainly not out of line.


Another interesting link I found on this site was a brochure on Student Religious Expression in Public Schools:  United States Department of Education Guidelines.

http://www.freedomforum.org/publications/first/findingcommonground/B10.USDeptGuidelines.pdf

Another article on Teachers' Religious Liberties was quite interesting and might be helpful to the teachers that Mr. Thompson indicated on Tuesday were "still scratching their heads" about what they can and can't do.

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/rel_liberty/publicschools/topic.aspx?topic=teachers_liberties

There is also A Teacher's Guide to Religion in the Public Schools link but that link was bringing up an error for me this morning.  Will try it later.

I take issue with Mr. Thompson's statement that teachers are still confused.  If they are, there are plenty of places that they can educate themselves regarding 1st Amendment issues.  After all, teachers should know how to learn.

I appreciate that Mrs. Barone was willing to take the time to locate this valuable information for me so that I could share it with everyone else.
"The pen is mightier than the sword", Edward Bulwer-Lytton

cateyes

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Re: School Board Elections This Fall
« Reply #167 on: October 15, 2009, 09:17:56 AM »
mtnmama  might be easier to address a question you have and  IF anyone addressed it..

 Hughes, Barone, Kirk and  Thompson were there and actually sat in that order. To help refresh anyone else memory that was there.

cateyes

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Re: School Board Elections This Fall
« Reply #168 on: October 15, 2009, 09:41:50 AM »
Seabisuit...I think what Thompson was referring when he said..teachers are confused...is that POLICY is not clear for the teachers to know..what is or is not allowed and within legal boundries.

I dont know Mr Thompson so learning as I go...but that is how I understood his statment when he spoke it at the meeting.

Remember....much has been done in this community as it has forever... but should NOT be allowed due to recent understanding from the courts..BUT to think we can be in such a position to never be sued...that is not correct thinking...and that is why insurance too.

Teachers are not attorneys....it is the responsiblity of the management to be sure they know what is legal or not within their classrooms and their faith. And then managment is responsible to address issues that are believed out of line...and doc everything.

ACLU like to flaunt all it CLAIMS to have won..but many times when you follow that lawsuit..it is not ruled as they make you believe. They are well known too..for using fear of lawsuit as a weapon too.

ACLJ(not the ACLU) which is, I believe the last link you gave..is a balanced look at much happening within our nation. They and the Moore Center have been to court even to the fed level thruout our nation upholding our rights to our faith in different settings.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 09:44:20 AM by cateyes »

seabiscuit

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Re: School Board Elections This Fall
« Reply #169 on: October 15, 2009, 10:52:42 AM »
cateyes

I understand what you are saying about the teachers but this situation is no different for me as a social worker.  I clearly understood what it meant when I was told in Graduate school that it is not appropriate for me to discuss my religion with my clients since they come from all backgrounds and I never did nor did I display any religious articles in my office.  I never even considered doing that.  The agencies that I worked in never had a "policy" directly related to my conduct it that area, it was part of the ethical responsibility of my licensure and to my clients or the population that I served.  I didn't need every employer to tell me how to act in that regard and to be honest I don't think it's a large portion of the teachers that are scratching their heads.  It's a few teachers who still want to find some way to include their religion inspite of the laws that prevent that.

There are gray areas for instance when people ask you about what you believe in, etc. but there are (as I pointed out) numerous places to go to get ideas about appropriate ways to handle this.  And as I said earlier keeping an awareness that these things exist makes you less likely to do something before you've checked it out with a colleague or superior.

I will agree that the previous administration should have done a better job of documenting what complaints/concerns they were receiving about John Freshwater so that the situation could have been handled more appropriately.  And those quidelines not only need to be more clear to staff but also consistently carried out by the administrators of our school system.

You are right that no district can be free of potential lawsuits, however, when something is brought to their attention (like the thought that there may be a problem with graduations at the KCCC) the Board and Administration, instead of poo-pooing the comment should research to be sure that they are doing everything that they need to do to prevent it from becoming a hot bed for a lawsuit.  It's easy to accept something just because its always been that way, its another thing to be responsible and check up on it to be sure that its also the right thing.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 10:54:51 AM by seabiscuit »
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cateyes

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Re: School Board Elections This Fall
« Reply #170 on: October 15, 2009, 12:33:37 PM »
 Seabiscuit....I think in the big picture the Freshwater case has brought to the surface...issues this commiunity had not addressed...but realize now...it should have been..and now the price is being paid.

 So with that being said...I look for someone on the SB that will do just that...not shove things under that rug..but address them straight forward.

 The graduation celebration I know worries you..I am hoping only from the stand point of concern of a lawsuit...well that facility is NEEDED..one major defense of its use..unless everyone wants to do it in the school stadium...rain or shine.. And one issue that may need addressed within this issue...someone has spoken of a large cross displayed...well the cross can be covered with a drop cloth...that would address that issue. And maybe should be done just to eliminate more chance for lawsuit because of it.

I am Christian...but have no issue with it being covered...nor do I NEED (I do wear a cross necklace my husband gave me) to wear or display my faith...I try to live it..having actions speak loudess.

So if the facility is an issue...there are easy ways to address the legal side..without hassle and still have a large inside facility to use.

seabiscuit

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Re: School Board Elections This Fall
« Reply #171 on: October 15, 2009, 12:43:46 PM »
cateyes

We are on the same page!

Ditto!
"The pen is mightier than the sword", Edward Bulwer-Lytton

NotJustinsOtherName

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Re: School Board Elections This Fall
« Reply #172 on: October 15, 2009, 12:55:45 PM »
cateyes

I understand what you are saying about the teachers but this situation is no different for me as a social worker.  I clearly understood what it meant when I was told in Graduate school that it is not appropriate for me to discuss my religion with my clients since they come from all backgrounds and I never did nor did I display any religious articles in my office.  I never even considered doing that.  The agencies that I worked in never had a "policy" directly related to my conduct it that area, it was part of the ethical responsibility of my licensure and to my clients or the population that I served.  I didn't need every employer to tell me how to act in that regard and to be honest I don't think it's a large portion of the teachers that are scratching their heads.  It's a few teachers who still want to find some way to include their religion inspite of the laws that prevent that.

There are gray areas for instance when people ask you about what you believe in, etc. but there are (as I pointed out) numerous places to go to get ideas about appropriate ways to handle this.  And as I said earlier keeping an awareness that these things exist makes you less likely to do something before you've checked it out with a colleague or superior.

I will agree that the previous administration should have done a better job of documenting what complaints/concerns they were receiving about John Freshwater so that the situation could have been handled more appropriately.  And those quidelines not only need to be more clear to staff but also consistently carried out by the administrators of our school system.

You are right that no district can be free of potential lawsuits, however, when something is brought to their attention (like the thought that there may be a problem with graduations at the KCCC) the Board and Administration, instead of poo-pooing the comment should research to be sure that they are doing everything that they need to do to prevent it from becoming a hot bed for a lawsuit.  It's easy to accept something just because its always been that way, its another thing to be responsible and check up on it to be sure that its also the right thing.

There is something to consider in addition. Once they are informed that the situation exists. That changes the level of liability as well. In other words there is no defense in saying "we were not aware". It is not certain that this would have a legal bearing however it most certainly should have a bearing on public opinion!
 
As for the legal obligation. A government body such at they are is required to do due diligence in such matters. They can not or rather should not blindly proceed into a murky legal area without legal guidance. To do so would be to violate the oath of that office. IMO!
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dhw

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Re: School Board Elections This Fall
« Reply #173 on: October 15, 2009, 03:05:09 PM »
How did the now, board handle, I can't remember his name, the superintent that was fired.  And was still paid something like $160,000 a year, plus all his benefits, for a year and half or two years?

The_Rooster

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Re: School Board Elections This Fall
« Reply #174 on: October 15, 2009, 03:14:39 PM »
It was a business director, not a superintendent. 
He wasn't fired, he was placed on administrative leave, the board called it a sabbatical.
 There's a gag order on what happened, so it was a legal thing obviously.

Google Dr. Al Haschak and follow the details.

How did the now, board handle, I can't remember his name, the superintent that was fired.  And was still paid something like $160,000 a year, plus all his benefits, for a year and half or two years?

cateyes

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Re: School Board Elections This Fall
« Reply #175 on: October 16, 2009, 12:25:27 AM »
  My understanding is because of the poor way things were handled..as in, not properly documented...it caused issues with what could be done with him legally....

Again..policies..and contracts to protect the community should have been different.



How did the now, board handle, I can't remember his name, the superintent that was fired.  And was still paid something like $160,000 a year, plus all his benefits, for a year and half or two years?

cateyes

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Re: School Board Elections This Fall
« Reply #176 on: October 16, 2009, 12:33:14 AM »
  I think we may be....I have concern as you..for the management.. ALL of it...not doing what should have been done...to protect the system and our money from issues as the Freshwater case.

 As I have said in another forum...I support the ACLJ...a org that defends our faith rights in different settings..BUT I do believe we should be following as best we can..the law of the land..so NOT to have what is happening now..

.but I do also know..we cant protect ourselves from everything..but this case sure should have been handled different..espeically in the recent years as court challenges were taking place all over the nation...IF I know about these cases in court all over the nation...why doesnt the managment of our system aware of this...or ASK FOR LEGAL COUNSEL about it??

Seems it would have been much cheaper to ask for legal counsel then what is happening now..in fact..I think the SB attorney most likely could have contacted any of this org that protect faith rights and gotten legal guidelines from them..most likely for free??



cateyes

We are on the same page!

Ditto!
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 12:35:28 AM by cateyes »

cateyes

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Re: School Board Elections This Fall
« Reply #177 on: October 16, 2009, 12:39:17 AM »
 Hey, Seabiscut....just wanted to say...I have enjoyed our debate..and the respect you have shown for my and others opinons...may we continue the same in the future..which I am sure is going to bring much more to debate!!

Oh and I say this even tho it seems we are on the same page about this issue.

seabiscuit

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Re: School Board Elections This Fall
« Reply #178 on: October 16, 2009, 06:43:12 AM »
Hey, Seabiscut....just wanted to say...I have enjoyed our debate..and the respect you have shown for my and others opinons...may we continue the same in the future..which I am sure is going to bring much more to debate!!

Oh and I say this even tho it seems we are on the same page about this issue.

I concur.  There are many important issues up for consideration at this next election.  The school board is just one.  I think we're all learning more and more how important it is to be informed voters. 

There's still a lot to know and a lot to consider.  I'm with you.  I want debate so that I can think through all sides of the issue before I make a final decision.
"The pen is mightier than the sword", Edward Bulwer-Lytton

Imagine

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Re: School Board Elections This Fall
« Reply #179 on: October 16, 2009, 08:43:56 AM »
How did the now, board handle, I can't remember his name, the superintent that was fired.  And was still paid something like $160,000 a year, plus all his benefits, for a year and half or two years?

This was discussed on MVOhio a while back.... Don't know if it would be helpful, but here is a link to the thread:

http://www.mvohio.net/index.php?topic=8678.0
Sometimes MVOhio feels like a group therapy session being held in the middle of a 3-ring circus.

 

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