Topic: Is having a Bible in the classroom a Mount Vernon Teacher's right?

[phred]

     



         

         My fear in all this, is the kind of information Thompson
         will be privy to.  I just don't like the idea of him having
         access, given his preference to Team Freshwater.

         

         True.  A valid concern.


 

[seabiscuit]

Here's some interesting information on the Panda's Thumb website regarding contradictions in John Freshwater's deposition and hearing testimony that is interesting reading for those following this court case.

The post includes information regarding a court case that occurred in Dover, PA that rings eerily similar to what appears to be happening here in Mt. Vernon, thus, the reference to the Dover case in the beginning of the post.  I've copied the first part of the blog here but you will need to go to the site to read the typed transcripts.  It's very interesting reading.

One of the low points for the defense in Kitzmiller was the testimony of Alan Bonsell, who was President of the Dover Area District Board of Education at the time of the adoption of the policy that provoked the lawsuit. Specifically, his sworn testimony in a pretrial deposition was found to be seriously contradicted by his equally sworn testimony in the court. Though it ultimately came to nothing, Judge Jones went so far as to refer the matter to prosecutors for potential perjury charges. (See here and here for the pertinent testimony.)

Now a roughly similar situation appears to have arisen in the Freshwater affair. It centers around the process by which Zachary Dennis was burned with a Tesla coil, and Freshwater is contradicting himself about it in two sets of sworn testimony and a motion filed in federal court. I’ll describe them in separate sections, reproducing a good deal of the testimony for the flavor of what goes on.

First recall that there are three legal proceedings under way, the administrative hearing on Freshwater’s termination; a federal suit brought against the district, administrators, and Freshwater; and a federal suit brought by Freshwater against the Dennis family, the district, and sundry others (including a number of unidentified John or Jane Does). The first two are the focus here. This is a long post, with lots of quotations from various of the legal venues, but it should give a feeling for the problems Freshwater is creating for himself in his sworn testimony in the several proceedings.

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2009/11/freshwater-a-bo.html

[seabiscuit]

Today's hearing was interesting.  A couple of proverbial "smoking guns" came out today.

#1 Instructions for the tesla coil were found by Mrs Button in the classroom so the argument that instructions for the instrument were unavailable for Mr. Freshwater was refuted by this testimony.

#2 When curriculum changes were made due to new State standards for science, the textbook committee handed out potential books to science staff for their review.  Today, the copy of the current text that was reviewed by Freshwater was submitted into evidence.  There were several exhibits submitted by the school's attorney from this reference book with specific handwritten notations by Freshwater.  These exhibits indicate what parts of the science curriculum that Freshwater did not agree with and the presentation of this book appeared to be a bit of surprise to Freshwater and atty Hamilton.

[seabiscuit]

Well, the hearing today lasted all of about an hour.  What a waste of time!  Not sure why R. Kelly Hamilton can't do a better job of lining up his witnesses so that this can progress quicker.

The next hearing dates are:

December 8, December 10, December 11 beginning at 9:00 am

[Airborne]

Today's hearing was interesting.  A couple of proverbial "smoking guns" came out today.

#1 Instructions for the tesla coil were found by Mrs Button in the classroom so the argument that instructions for the instrument were unavailable for Mr. Freshwater was refuted by this testimony.

#2 When curriculum changes were made due to new State standards for science, the textbook committee handed out potential books to science staff for their review.  Today, the copy of the current text that was reviewed by Freshwater was submitted into evidence.  There were several exhibits submitted by the school's attorney from this reference book with specific handwritten notations by Freshwater.  These exhibits indicate what parts of the science curriculum that Freshwater did not agree with and the presentation of this book appeared to be a bit of surprise to Freshwater and atty Hamilton.

This looks more like pontification and speculation as opposed to any fact.  I don't even think the Mt. Vernon News would allow a guest reporter from middle school to "report" this way....try taking an objective pill please.

[seabiscuit]

A couple of handouts were mentioned in yesterday's hearing.  I had time today to pull them up on the internet.  I can't say that these are the exact handouts presented by Mr. Freshwater to his class but they have the same information.

Dinosaur Fossils~Age Old Debate

http://www.allaboutcreation.org/dinosaur-fossils.htm

Dinosaur Extinction~Compelling New Theory

http://www.dinosaur-extinction.com/

[Airborne]

I found a copy of the bible and it had the word "the" in it...I can't state for a fact whether or not Mr. Freshwater taught the bible in the classroom, but I can say that evidence suggests he said "the" at least once.

Keep in mind Mulsim children read their Qur'an each and every day and it is the core, the foundation of everything else they learn.

[seabiscuit]

News coverage of yesterday's hearing:


http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/09/12/04/top-story

[phred]

Today's hearing was interesting.  A couple of proverbial "smoking guns" came out today.

#1 Instructions for the tesla coil were found by Mrs Button in the classroom so the argument that instructions for the instrument were unavailable for Mr. Freshwater was refuted by this testimony.

#2 When curriculum changes were made due to new State standards for science, the textbook committee handed out potential books to science staff for their review.  Today, the copy of the current text that was reviewed by Freshwater was submitted into evidence.  There were several exhibits submitted by the school's attorney from this reference book with specific handwritten notations by Freshwater.  These exhibits indicate what parts of the science curriculum that Freshwater did not agree with and the presentation of this book appeared to be a bit of surprise to Freshwater and atty Hamilton.

           Yes.  Very significant sharing of information
           as the courage to come forward continues
           to emerge.

           Yes.  Definitely 'smoking guns' and perhaps
           only the tip of the iceberg.


 

[seabiscuit]

I sat through the Freshwater's testimony last week. To sum it up, he pretty much said that he has never done anything wrong, that he doesn't try to teach Intelligent Design, that he doesn't believe religion should be taught in science class, that he believes "scientifically" in carbon dating, the fossil record and science and that everyone who has testified or said anything to the contrary lied.

I figured I had either entered the Twilight Zone or was having the same experience as the character, Bobby Ewing, had on Dallas when he discovered that the whole previous season was actually just something he had dreamed about and didn't actually happen.

Freshwater even indicated John Fair who was called by R. Kelly Hamilton, his own attorney, was lying when he stated that saw John Freshwater at G.R. Smith's Hardware on the day of the rally and John H2O told him that "Daubee" was on the square and would probably like to see John Fair as the two used to work together at MVHS. I mean honestly, what's up with that????? It begins to look a whole lot of crazy when John Freshwater seems to think that everyone who has testified about things he has done is involved in some kind of conspiracy to completely lie about him. Let's be real. John Freshwater isn't that important that so many people would make him the focus of some great conspiracy.

[Airborne]

Good to see seabisquit is objective...NOT

You're not summing up anything except your own perception of what went on...you see and hear only what you want to see and hear...

[ClockStopper]

Good to see seabisquit is objective...NOT

You're not summing up anything except your own perception of what went on...you see and hear only what you want to see and hear...

I was there, too, and Seabiscuit's description is consistent with what I saw and heard.  And I took 50 pages of notes on his testimony as he was giving it over the three days, so it's not a matter of selective memory.

[Airborne]

Please show me where I said it had something to do with "selective memory"...you both have a negative view of John The Teacher and that clouds your perception.  FunctionalMRI's are showing this phenomenon in real-time...you have a totally different perception of what is happening than someone who is objective, or someone who sides with John.

I don't doubt that the two of you, with 50 pages of notes (by the way they also show just how much you miss when you are taking notes) both see negative against John.

These MRI's also show that close to 80% of crime victims cannot identify the perp...that how the cops present the data actually makes the victim "perceive" the criminal is who the cops want it to be...lid coming off this scam...this year

[ClockStopper]

These MRI's also show that close to 80% of crime victims cannot identify the perp...that how the cops present the data actually makes the victim "perceive" the criminal is who the cops want it to be...lid coming off this scam...this year

Um, I used to teach that at the college level starting back when Elizabeth Loftus' systematic research on the unreliability of eyewitness testimony started coming out in the mid-1970s.  And you know what?  There are ways of mitigating those perceptual effects, starting with being aware that they occur.  You seem to be suggesting that there's no way to avoid blinding bias in perception, when in fact one can mitigate it, if not completely eliminate it.  Read through my Panda's Thumb reports.  You'll find that they're reasonably objective, though I do allow myself some editorial comments.  In addition, I have a slew of the court reporter's transcripts of the testimony (4 Megs of zipped transcripts), and I have checked several of my reports against that record.  They pretty accurately represent what the court recorder's transcript says the testimony was, so I have some independent corroboration of the reliability of my reports and, by extension, my perceptions.

(Oh, and part of the way cops screw with witnesses is by inducing false memories by using appropriately worded questions.  That was one of Loftus' first papers, published in 1975 if I recall correctly.)

[runner76]

I do believe that Freshwater has convinced himself that he has done no wrong whatsoever. At this point in time he could probably pass any lie detector test in believing that he is completely blameless. Sad. In knowing Freshwater for so many years, and always feeling he was a good guy and a fine teacher, it is very sad to see where he was back then to where he has come now. Too bad Freshwater did not count his losses before the Rally on the Square, do the simple things he was asked, and move on. Now all that's left in all of this is the Theater of the Absurd and broken pieces of broken lives.