Topic: Is having a Bible in the classroom a Mount Vernon Teacher's right?

[sloppyjo]

yikes 

[My Dixie Wrecked]

   Im betting the district will be amazed at the support from the youth that is building for Mr Freshwater ,

[Forest]

Although I personally don't see the problem with having the Bible on his desk, I certainly understand and support the Schools decision with having him remove it.

IF Mr Freshwater had a copy of Mein Kampf sitting on his desk, I wouldn't like it.

IF Mr Freshwater had a copy of Constitution and Laws of the Ku Klux Klan, I wouldn't like it.

IF Mr Freshwater had a copy of Rainbow Revolution on his desk, I wouldn't like it.

The separation of Church and State is very clear.

The fact that it's "The Bible" is what makes it seem "ok to have" or "I don't see a problem with it"..........

The issue is.....there ARE people out there who DO have a problem with it.

If you allow this Teacher to continue this, where do you draw the line?

I think that is where the issue truly lies.....If you allow this guy to do this, where does it end and how can you justify NOT allowing another teacher to have a copy of any book of his/her choice on their desk.

thanks.

[My Dixie Wrecked]

   point taken ... BUT , its a book regardless ,and the trouble is , there needs to be choices taught in life , PERIOD .. and there are worse things the middle school students are exposed to other then a Bible sitting on a desk ..
just go watch the kids roll off the school bus at the Pleasant street school
a Bible or even a copy of Rainbow Revolution is the least of my worries ,,

[sloppyjo]

My biggest bitch is, IF we can't teach the bible in school than we should not be able to teach evolution in science class.

[debrose]

The way the laws currently stand, and apparently, Mount Vernon schools' policy, it appears as though it is his right.

I caught a name in an earlier post - a quote from a news article I believe. Dave Daubenmire. Isn't that the former football coach from (I think) Madison Plains who got into the firestorm about the football team praying?

http://www.ptsalt.com/

"Subtle" witnessing has been around for years. Just having the Bible on his desk gives the opportunity for questions to be asked.

From the posts of a few of our members, it appears as though Mr. Freshwater has a loyal following of current and former students. I really wonder if the parents started this storm or the "offended" student.

[Forest]

  point taken ... BUT , its a book regardless ,and the trouble is , there needs to be choices taught in life , PERIOD .. and there are worse things the middle school students are exposed to other then a Bible sitting on a desk ..
just go watch the kids roll off the school bus at the Pleasant street school
a Bible or even a copy of Rainbow Revolution is the least of my worries ,,

Point taken....BUT.....There are people who feel that the Bible IS the worse thing that could be sitting on his desk.  You feel is isn't bad, that's your opinion.  There are people who do feel it's bad, that's their opinion.

Regarding evolution....

The sections of evolution that are taught are PROVEN.  Like a tadpole evolving into a frog, the metamorphosis of that change is taught. period.

The Bible is a THEORY.  Some people regard it as Fiction.  Some people believe it was written by a bunch of drunken peyote chewing kings who were simply hallucinating.

any more questions?

[jasonb911]

Its there on his desk, much like other books that are in the library and other materials are in the schools.  Next thing you know, historical documents will be removed or censored to take the word God out of them.  I am far from a bible thumper, oh my if you knew only how far...but the fact remains that this country was founded with the word God on MANY documents.  

If you're going to take the bible off his desk, I suggest the school also look at the following:

1.  No longer talking about evolution
2.  No longer can children wear boy scout or girl scout uniforms to school.  There are religious symbols on some of the patches the children earn, plus the scouts have numerous references to God in their materials.
3.  Persons of other ethnicities can no longer wear their homeland clothing because it may show their religious background.  Sorry, that goes for for foreign exchange students, leave the ceremonial headgear from your homeland at HOME.  Yes, sorry to say that also includes the Goth style clothing as well, people could draw conclusions about your religion and be offended my mistake...we can't have that.
4.  If you're going to take God out of school, you'd better ban Buddha, Allah, Mythical Gods, Egyptian Gods, and Hindu Gods.
5.  While we're at it, we're going to need to censor even more of history from the teachings in school.  Already there are too many references to the words Christianity.  Religion must not be discussed, nobody's religion that is.  In all fairness no names for religions can be used either.
6.  If you don't believe in religion, sorry to say i haven't come up with anything for you yet, but we'll take something away.  
7.  Lets not forget the Pledge of Allegiance, words that have rang around this great United States, God must be removed from there or the Pledge done away with altogether.  
8.  Currency cannot be brought into the school whatsoever, it contains the word God on it.  Instead, parents will need to set up accounts.  Charge cards for everyone, or maybe bar codes stamped on the childs head...hmm i think I've heard reference to where this goes.
9.  The list could go on and on, the more I think about it.  

Just another wonderful thing that the Mount Vernon City School District is trying to do.  Administration can't even keep their own house clean so they want to distract the public with something like this.  Watch what the other hand is doing right now, the school needed a cover and needed something to take the heat off of the Al Haschak issue.  

To lose an educator with the experience that he has is disgraceful on the part of the MVCSD, where will it end?  You've tried to force other teachers out, make conditions miserable for staff at the school in the past, what's next?  

Clean your own house before you start tackling the teachers who are doing their jobs!  

[My Dixie Wrecked]

   its the freedom to choose what you believe in 
and just because the Bible is on his desk doesnt mean hes forcing anything on any one .
It would be like people saying I have a tattoo of Jesus on my shoulder that I was forcing my beliefs on them

[blanche]

Personally, I don't have a problem with Mr. Freshwater having a bible on his desk.  My problem is his "refusal" to put it away when school administration asked him.  I believe teachers are under contract to the school system, and Mr. Freshwater agreed to abide by the rules and regulations of that school system.  The bible even backs up the fact that he should submit to his employer's authority:

Romans 13:1
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."

Mr. Freshwater voluntarily placed himself under the authority of the school district and he needs to fulfill his obligation to them.

[Forest]

Personally, I don't have a problem with Mr. Freshwater having a bible on his desk.  My problem is his "refusal" to put it away when school administration asked him.  I believe teachers are under contract to the school system, and Mr. Freshwater agreed to abide by the rules and regulations of that school system.  The bible even backs up the fact that he should submit to his employer's authority:

Romans 13:1
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."

Mr. Freshwater voluntarily placed himself under the authority of the school district and he needs to fulfill his obligation to them.

That blanche can stop a thread dead in its tracks with logic, huh?

I even read her post in a calm yet matter of fact tone of voice.

Unlike Jasons, which I read with a tribal scream.............

[jasonb911]

Going off of how I feel you interpreted Romans 13:1, the MVCSD is an authority established by God?  You must not have worked for or seen how this school system works.  Under this verse I pull from it that we are to obey a higher authority.  I would chose to obey the constitution that clearly states "Freedom of Religion" before I obey the school district.  I've seen the school employment policies and handbooks and don't clearly EVER remember seeing a reference to not having a bible on the school desk.  If the school can point that out, I would be amazed.  

I would say, with the right legal representation, Freshwater will be perfectly fine.  

I see your point in the bible reference and it does make sense to me, to a point.  Just depending on the version of the bible that you are reading, some would say that following that verse you are trying to say the schools were ordained, appointed, or instituted by God.  

Personally, I don't have a problem with Mr. Freshwater having a bible on his desk.  My problem is his "refusal" to put it away when school administration asked him.  I believe teachers are under contract to the school system, and Mr. Freshwater agreed to abide by the rules and regulations of that school system.  The bible even backs up the fact that he should submit to his employer's authority:

Romans 13:1
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."

Mr. Freshwater voluntarily placed himself under the authority of the school district and he needs to fulfill his obligation to them.

[stockader]

If Mr. Freshwater's bible had a book cover, we would not be having this discussion because the kid in questions would not have known the book was a bible.   If Mr. Freshwater had another textbook on his desk (say for instance, Zondervan Handbook), we would not be having this discussion.  This kid saw the word BIBLE on a book and wanted to start something - period.  My guess is this very same kid could not tell you what the bible says but has a preconceived idea that he does not like it.  Who taught him that?

[Plautus]

I had a high school math teacher who occasionally left copies of Playboy on his desk.

He said he read it for the articles.



"You're not from around here, are you?"

No, I am not.

[Forest]

If Mr. Freshwater's bible had a book cover, we would not be having this discussion because the kid in questions would not have known the book was a bible.   If Mr. Freshwater had another textbook on his desk (say for instance, Zondervan Handbook), we would not be having this discussion.  This kid saw the word BIBLE on a book and wanted to start something - period.  My guess is this very same kid could not tell you what the bible says but has a preconceived idea that he does not like it.  Who taught him that?

So, why didn't he have a book cover on it? He a smart guy, I'm sure he has thought of that idea over the last 20 years. I would venture a guess that he didn't have a book cover on it for the same reason he keeps it out on his desk....he wants kids to see it, he wants kids to ask about it....

Hey, say that like you would say, "You WANT me on that wall, you NEED me on that wall."